From: lakepch at sun-link.com (Jackie and/or Frank Lake)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 01:12:47 -0500
Subject: LAKE Genealogy in 16 & 17 Century

I would like to make some comments on TJ White's (genealogy) outline.

Firstly, I am very pleased he made it available to the list and I applaud
his reason that it would be the starter for a (genealogical) discussion.

I believe what was being said in a nutshell was:

John Lake I born 1511 Irby (upon Humber) Lincolnshire  married Eliz. Lone
who was born in North Benfleet, Essex. Their sons were
       1     John Lake II born abt 1535 married & died in 1575 at Irby upon Humber
       2     Robert Lake born 1537 North Benfleet, Essex died 1574
       3     Richard Lake born 1539 Raleigh, Essex and died 1599 North Benfleet, Essex

Richard Lake (#3above) had a son:
        3.1    John Lake Sr. born 1565 N. Benfleet, Essex; died 1612 N.  Benfleet, Essex
                    He married Eliz. Sandall in 1590 at N. Benfleet, Essex
                    Among their children were:

            3.1.1 John Lake Jr. born 1590, Normanton, Yorkshire died 1657, Ipswich, Essex
                    He married Margaret Reade in 1616 (place not given). She was born in 1598
                    at North Benfleet, Essex. Their children included

                    3.1.1.1  Daniel Lake in his 1642 bequeathed money to his brother John to go
                                to America. He Daniel died in Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire

                    3.1.1.2 Thomas Lake I born 1612 in Wickford, Essex and married Sarah
                             Peate in 1685, presumably in America since she was born there in 1665

                    3.1.1.3 John Lake III born 1626 Wickford, Essex, married Anne Spicer in
                                    Gravesend LI before 1649

The first thing that strikes me is the different places one family lived.
For instance John Lake I was born in northern Lincolnshire married Eliz.
Lone from southern Essex, about 100 miles away across country or by sea.
Their first child is born in the same village as he was and the second child
where she was born. A very mobile family for the sixteenth century,
especially when you consider both birth villages were small in out of the
way parts of England. Secondly, why did John Lake Sr who was born, married
and died in North Benfleet have his first son born in Normanton, Yorkshire,
which is even further away than Irby and the rest of his children back in
Essex. Where Leighton Buzzard is supposed to fit in I do not know. It is in
the west of England. If you get out a map of England and look at these
places, imagine the state of travel by land or sea in those times and you
will begin to have doubts as to the accuracy of some of these family
relationships.

Looking at individuals:

John Lake I born 1511 at Irby (upon-Humber). The earliest parish records for
Irby are dated 1558. Most English parish records (baptisms, marriages and
burials) are from that period or later. There are few records before parish
records and they tended to be of the wealthy and of the gentry. If such a
record exists, I would dearly love to know about it. I now reference an
article by Walter Goodwin Davis called "Ancestry of John Lake. Husband of
Margaret (Reade) Lake" in the New England Historical and Genealogical
Register in the 1930s and reprinted in 'English Origins of New England
Families', Volume 2 of the Second Series, pp. 597-611. He quotes from the
parish register of Runwell, Essex 1558 John Lake and Elizabeth Lone married
3 February (This would be 1559 by today's dating system). He thinks she was
a widow. John Lake remarried in 1589 as per the North Benfleet Parish
register. There is no record in either parish record and any baptisms or
burials of any children of John. Neither is there any reference to his
children in his will of 1596. The major portion is bequeathed to his nephew,
John Lake, son of his brother Richard. Therefore John Lake II cannot be the
son of John Lake I by Eliz. Lone or another.
Further, in the 1666 Visitation of Lincolnshire, Sir Edward only records his
family back to John Lake of Irby who died in 1575. He probably did not know
any further. His grandfather had died when his father was only 5.

John Lake II (#1)
Same comment about his birth as John I. First marriage is correct and second
should be about 1563 or 4 since his daughter, Douglas, was born 13 May 1565
according to the PR. His burial is also in the PR but I have not been able
to find his will which might confirm that he had a son also called John
before 1560. There is a will of a John Lake the elder of Tetney,
Lincolnshire dated 1621 quoting his brother Richard. There is no indication
this John left Lincolnshire for Essex and returned. John II's son Richard
was born in Irby not Tetney as per the PR.

Richard Lake (#3) was the brother of John Lake I according to his 1596 will.

John Lake Sr. (#3.1) appears as per Davis's article except Davis did not
mention a date of marriage in the North Benfleet PR. He may have married in
another parish, Basildon, not mentioned by Davis.

John Lake Jr. (#3.1.1) according to the North Benfleet PR he was baptized on
26 Sept 1590. There was a John Lake born about 1590, probably before 1585,
in Normanton (no w), Yorkshire, the son of Lancelot Lake and Emma Northend
according to the Harleian account of the 1585 and 1612 Visitation of
Yorkshire. No other was recorded after that date.

John Lake III (3.1.1.3) according to Davis's report of the Wickford PR, he
was born there on the same day and month as TJ's outline but the year was
1617 not 1626. Davis suggests that John III died in England or possibly
Scotland before Jan 1657/8. From that, I think it unlikely he became John
Lake of Gravesend, LI.

Thomas Lake I (3.1.1.2) according to Davis, 'nothing else known' after his
baptism. He is not mentioned in his grandfather, Edmund Reade's will of 1623
as was his brother John. I think it unlikely that he would be the husband of
Sarah Peate. He would be 66 and she 20, if the marriage date is correct -
possible but would it be likely? Is there other information about Sarah
Peate's husband?

There few other comments I have are:

I am aware of the comment in Risley and Adams that Margaret Lake, nee Reade,
claimed her husband was related to the Thomas and John Lake of Boston. I
know of nothing to substantiate it.

According to Sir Edward Lake's will, Francis Lake was his cousin, not his
nephew. This is documented in a number of places including T. P. Langmead's
article in The Camden Miscellany Vol 4 1859 'Sir Edward Lake's Interviews
with Charles I on being Created a Baronet and Receiving an Augmentation to
his Arms' and my late aunt's notes from Sir Edward's will in the PRO,
London. In this case, 'cousin' meant 'first cousin' instead of the more
loose meaning. This is documented in the Irby PR.

According to the Visitations of Yorkshire the arms of the Lakes of Normanton
was the Lake arms 'Sable, a bend between 6 trefoils slipped argent'
quartered with the Caley arms with the Lake in the first and fourth
quarters. The differentiation of trefoils from crosses as in other Lake arms
implies a family connection but it may or may not be true. Also  a crest was
given to John Lake of Normanton by William Flower, Norroy King of Arms in
1564 'A sea-horse's head couped, barry of 6 agent and gules, crined or, ...'
(the rest is unreadable on the photocopy)

In conclusion, I question some of the relationships in the outline. I
believe my questions are based in the main on information from parish
registers and wills albeit in some cases reported by others. To me, it seems
unlikely that a person would move about England as much as some in the
outline. A more logical explanation might be there are two or more people of
the same name in the different places in England. There also could be
confusion over relationships. Davis seems to make a convincing argument that
John Lake I died without living issue, if he had any at all. That is
contrary to the outline. In the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries,
the names John, Thomas and Richard were common all over the country and we
know there were many Lake families in various parts of England when the
Parish registers were started in the mid-1500s. I believe there is a lot of
good data in the outline. However, I get the impression that the originators
of some of the facts in the outline thought there were only a few persons
called Lake and therefore on occasion condensed two or more persons into
one.

I hope my comments produce more discussion on the genealogy of the Lakes and
that it will be with referenced facts, as far as that is possible. There are
many unanswered questions including where did some of the facts in the
outline come from. Personally, I would like to know about the John Lakes of
Irby before 1560 and where could a will be when the date it was written and
proved is known.

Frank Lake



From: erroldme at vermontel.net (Virginia B. Coursen)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:05:58 -0500
Subject: Thomas Lake

I know this is a small point but it was stated that Thomas Lake was
owner of part of Arrowsic Island in Kennebec, Maine. It was
Georgetown, Maine on the Kennebec River. This small town is across the
river from Bath, Maine. Some day when I visit my family down there I
should explore what the town records show.
Thank you Virginia